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UrbaniDesDev UrbaniDesDev is offline

Good points Pa Pride. I think there is a bit of perspective thats
missing. Most of these comparisons are relative. Pittsburgh is not in
the same boat as Atlanta, Miami, Phoenix or Seattle. We are in the
same boat as Detroit, St. Louis, Buffalo and Cleveland. Having
recently been to these cities, Pittsburgh is, by far, ahead of the
game. All of these cities are suffering from a loss of population and
jobs. Pittsburgh has held together quite well, from what Ive seen. I
truly believe that a foundation has been set and the rest will
follow. It is already begun.

One of the most important of the changes that has taken place here,
and the importance often overlooked, is the conversion of the
riverfronts to parks. This has laid a good foundation for a future of
inner city neighborhoods. The South Side Works, The North Shore,
Downtown residential towers would not be happening if it werent for
the beautification of the rivers, tho not finished, it is the
commitment that is evident and developers see this
commitment. Transportation, jobs and sluggish politicians are a common
problem in most cities, even booming ones. They are not unique to
Pittsburgh.

The problem with the job market is a circular argument. Yes there
might be more job opportunities in Phoenix, but the population there
is swelling, creating more jobs and attracting more employers. It is
far more than just having better tax climate and more to the sun. The
communities there are battling each other as far as tax incentives,
like everywhere else. Mesa, Scottsdale, Glendale and Tempe are all
pulling jobs from Phoenix, same battle, different players. From what
Ive seen, Phoenix is struggling to keep it's more affluent population
from leaving to it's neighbors. Even the boom cities have their
battles. Pittsburgh's battle with the loss of industry has been far
more critical, which makes me so impressed on how it has stood it's
ground.

Las Vegas, the fastest growing city, has no city amenities. There were
billions being spent on the strip. Huge decadent hotels going up,
likely with huge subsidies, while the rest of the city off the strip
it is a dismal spread of cheap strip malls melting into an endless sea
of generic neighborhoods, rich and poor.

It is going to be hard to stay afloat in the job market, especially
the climate that I believe is coming nationally. It will not be unique
to Pittsburgh. We may not have the transportation system that we want,
or maybe need. Most cities don't. We do have a stong infrastructure
for good urban neighborhoods and most cities don't have that. The
sprawling boom towns are going to be hit hard with gasoline crunch
that is coming. I believe the future will hold alot more federal funds
available for mass transit as the country will finally come to grips
with it's love affair with the automoble, highways, traffic and
oil. Pittsburgh is uniquely positioned to accomodate a region better
served by mass transit than overcrowded freeways.

With all the complaints of transportation here, Pittsburgh has one of
the shortest commute times and still has one of the strongest
Downtowns in the country.

All the complaints of the current condition of downtown
Pittsburgh. You'd be hard pressed to find a downtown Phoenix, or shops
in downtown St Louis, LA, Atlanta or Miami...

This doomsday scenerio that plagues Pittsburgh is one of the unique
problems to Pittsburgh. It's always the end of the world here. This is
like a virus that infects people here.

This may be a morbid thought, but the changing climate will prove to
be beneficial to this area. There will be a great battle for water in
the future. My theory is, the same way people have fled to the sun in
the 80s and the 90s, they will begin a search of water and a more
sustainable lifestyle in the future. Atlanta is dying of thirst. These
"Sun Belt" cities will soon be clammering for the waters of the Great
Lakes. The talks of pipelines have already begun. Im hoping we have
the proper politicians to protect them. Miami has a jungle of empty
condo towers, built on speculation. Atlanta has a great subway system
that no one uses, (atleast thats how it appears sitting in traffic),
traffic that will choke this city. This system of moving farther and
farther from city centers is becoming unmanageable

The migration has already begun in my eyes, as so many friends and
family, long lost to the "affluent" sunny spots are planning to return
here. Not because of taxes, jobs or water, but quite simply it is so
affordable and sustainable here. Pittsburgh has largely been spared
the great mortgage collapse that has happened out west or down
south. This won't show as a great population swell here, as most are
singles or empty nesters, but they are affluent, and they are
coming. 50% of my clients have moved here from out of state, 60% of
them are returning with spouse in tow.

==Pittsburgh is not "far ahead" of St. Louis. Pittsburgh and St. Louis
have a fair bit in common: big rivers, empty airports, two main
business areas (downtowns, Oakland/Clayton MO), large parks (schenley,
forest park), 3 new sports stadiums (but no NBA team), casinos,
universities (cmu/pitt, wustl/slu), big hospitals (upmc, barnes/jewish
in the CWE), Inclines vs Arch, etc.

Pittsburgh's transportation infrastructure is in worse shape (St Louis
has better highways and actually has light rail service from
downtown/Clayton to the airport, our airport is a long drive out
parkway west).

==
I don't think you make a fair comparison between Pgh and
St. Louis. While I will defer to your understanding of traffic
infrastructure, I have to take issue with your other
comparisons. Pitt/CMU/UPMC/CHP are MUCH more prestigious than their
equivalents in St. Louis (with the notable exception being Washington
University). Pgh several very large parks, not one. Our togography
makes us an outdoorsman's dream. St Louis sits in the middle of the
continent, whereas Pgh is close enough to the Atlantic to make
non-stop European flights.

Pretty much the only thing St Louis has on Pgh is Nelly, and I
wouldn't exactly call that a plus for them.

== Evergrey  Evergrey is online now
Sidin' with Biden
        
The sidescraperpage.com forum - pittsburgh rundown.

You're right, xyagentman. We can create the most beautiful, exciting,
livable city in America (and the media often makes note of
this)... but people can't live here if they don't have a job. And we
aren't creating jobs due to poor state economic policies (coupled with
weak and hyper-fragmented local government). Look across the entire
state... all across Pennsylvania, economic and population growth is
either relatively stagnant or in decline. Even gigantic
BosWash-corridor Philly has had very weak growth over the past few
decades... most of its growth actually takes place in New Jersey and
Delaware. The York/Lancaster area has the most robust growth due to
its new-found status as long-distance exurbia for DC/Baltimore. That
type of sprawl-economy is certainly nothing to be proud of.

Pittsburgh is really at a crossroads now. We're a couple decades
removed from steel... we have great educational and research
institutions in place to take advantage of the post-industrial
high-tech economy. We have a relatively strong urban core that has
been reviving itself. We have unique assets found nowhere else in the
U.S. But we need a lot of help from the state government. The state
stripped away the city's power to leverage "payments in lieu of taxes"
from non-profits. The state keeps Pittsburgh at a puny under-bounded
extent of 55 sq. miles while its peers expand into the hundreds of
square miles to capture tax base and economic growth. The state puts
the city at the mercy of arbitration process that has resulted in the
ever-expanding wages of the 6-figure firefighter lords. The state
engineered the municipal pension crisis... something that cities
across the state are facing. This state is blind to its local
government crisis... and I have little hope they will address this
antiquated system. There are powerful people who profit from the
status quo... to the detriment of the state.

== May 30 200
yperion1110  hyperion1110 is offline
North Sider
		
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 262

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergrey View Post
Actually, this is the first "bust" Pittsburgh has "insulated" itself
from... Pittsburgh suffered worse than the nation in every previous
recession in modern history... including the first Dubya
recession... which Pittsburgh didn't emerge from until 2005. And the
early 80s were basically depression level here. I hope what we're
seeing during this recession... is that Pittsburgh has finally reached
the inflection point of economic restructuring... an effective mix of
industries and talent and innovation has been reached here... which
currently insulates us and promises a vigorous economic future when
the recession recedes. What we're seeing in Pittsburgh today is
different from the past... and perhaps it portends a different future.
I tend to agree with you on this, Evergrey. The 80's recession in
Pittsburgh was...weird...to live through. I was young, so I have
limited appreciation for how bad it was. But, at the same time, I
remember all of the building downtown quite clearly. I can distinctly
recall the building of 5th Ave Place and the old CNG Tower, and it
gave me the impression that things were going okay. Add to that all of
the major corporations that still called Pittsburgh home back then,
and it was easy to overlook the seriousness of the economic
downturn. Moreover, I was probably in the last generation of
Pittsburghers born before the massive exodus of young families. For
example, the incoming class my freshman year at Perry Traditional
Academy (city high school) was 496, the largest there had been in a
long time. The classes after mine, though, we substantially
smaller. It wasn't until I graduated high school in the late 90's that
I realized the difference between how Pittsburgh was before and after
the decline of Big Steel.

Many are quick to point out the bad with our city and region. Sure, we
have our problems. Some cities are better off even now, though not
many. Most, however, are not doing nearly as well. Even that, though,
is not cause for celebration (besides how immoral it is to look down
on the misfortunes of others). The thing that I think is most
important, and the reason Obama selected Pittsburgh for the G20
summit, is the difference between Pittsburgh as it is now and as it
was 25 years ago. As someone who's witnessed it first hand, I can
attest that the transformation is staggering!

As for the camp that claims Pittsburgh never-boomed-so-never-busted,
while this is true, it's a naive perspective. Remember the lesson of
the tortoise and the hare: Charlotte, Pheonix, et al may have
experienced explosive growth, but that growth is next to meaningless
in the long run. Slow growth is sustainable growth. We simply cannot
live under the delusion that the explosive growth of the late 90's is
the model for smart growth; delusions of prosperity, and entitlement,
are what caused the economic issues we have now.

Pittsburghers are not deluded enough to think we deserve something we
didn't work for; or that we have something already that is unreal. As
a consequence, our growth is no mirage. It's real and steady, and it's
the reason why the representatives of the world's 20 largest economies
are coming here in September.

==May 31 2009
There is an interesting article in this week's issue of the
Economist. It's titled "Cities and their deficits: Staring into the
abyss". It outlines the staggering deficits of America's major cities,
including cities like Columbus, NY, Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Seattle
and Phoenix (many cities people wouldn't expect to see on this list).
The part of the article that's interesting to note in this forum,
especially given the last few posts:
"All in all, the future looks grim. Even if the economy recovers
tomorrow, there is generally an 18-24 month lag before cities feel
it. Many will be in worse shape in 2010 and 2011... But most are
plugging present holes with little thought for tomorrow. The one
bright spot, suprisingly, is Pittsburgh. The city and its region, once
synonymous with steel, lost 120,000 manufacturing jobs in the
1980s. But over three decades it diversified. Now its main industries,
healthcare and education are thriving. The waterfront, once lined with
factories, has been transformed into parks...Pittsburgh narrowly
escaped bankruptcy in 2003, and was forced into state
receivership. But it actually has a surplus now."
"Pittsburgh is in relatively good shape because it largely missed the
housing and dotcom booms enjoyed by the rest of the country. Indeed,
it is currently building a new sports arena and a new
hospital. Because of its 2003 brush with bankruptcy, it cut its city
workforce by a quarter, implemented a salary freeze and made many hard
decisions, such as closing fire stations. The other cities could learn
a few lessons from Pittsburgh."
Great props for Pittsburgh from another major source.